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Prisoner Rights

prisoners

Criminal psychology is a fascinating area of study, at least to me. This week, news spread that 79 year old Charles Manson filed for a marriage certificate to marry "Star," a 25 year old woman from Illinois. She was only 16 when she first discovered Manson on the Internet and immediately became attracted to his environmental philosophy, at least that's the story she tells the press. They speak almost every day on the phone, and she's permitted to visit him on weekends. However, conjugal visits are prohibited, so technically sex is not permissible unless they find creative ways to engage in the act without security guards noticing. Entirely possible! People are always finding clever ways to engage in sex in public places or under tight scrutiny.

I started thinking recently about what rights the most evil and heinous prisoners like Manson should have. Should he be allowed to marry? Have sexual visits with his soon to be wife? Some American prisoners have access to TVs, Internet and books on occasion. The most notorious of killers receive thousands of emails from women interested in pursuing romantic relationships with them. What makes a woman attracted to such a person? I can't understand it, maybe there are some psychologists amongst my readers who can explain? As you can see, Manson's soon to be wife is not some ugly duckling. She's quite attractive and well spoken, yet drawn to a prisoner who committed some of the most horrific murders in American history. Future husband with a swastika tattooed on his forehead? Apparently it's attractive to at least one person. You can hear her explain the relationship in this interview.

I know nothing about the Russian prison system, or how inmates are treated there. What rights do you think prisoners should have? Internet, TV, books, privacy for sexual relations if they're married or have a girlfriend? I'm torn on this subject, not sure how I feel...

Comments

( 132 comments — Leave a comment )
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pin_gwin
Nov. 21st, 2014 03:32 pm (UTC)
This is a bit misleading photo. Watching this lady live interviews may change your opinion about her appearance. Anyway, an attraction of bad guys is well known phenomenon. There is nothing rational in love, and the men, who manage to understand women, should be immediately imprisoned. It's a crime!!!
peacetraveler22
Nov. 21st, 2014 03:39 pm (UTC)
I've seen a lot of pictures and interviews with her. I think she's attractive, but of course this is subjective. :) Not in a model type of way, but in an "Average Jane" sort of way. Plain and natural. Yes, it's a common scenario for women to be attracted to "bad boys," but serial killers takes it to another level.
another silence of the lambs - pin_gwin - Nov. 21st, 2014 03:43 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: another silence of the lambs - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 21st, 2014 03:45 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: another silence of the lambs - pin_gwin - Nov. 21st, 2014 03:51 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: another silence of the lambs - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 21st, 2014 03:54 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: another silence of the lambs - pin_gwin - Nov. 21st, 2014 04:01 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: another silence of the lambs - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 21st, 2014 04:03 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: another silence of the lambs - pin_gwin - Nov. 21st, 2014 04:16 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: another silence of the lambs - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 21st, 2014 04:17 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: another silence of the lambs - maadmike - Nov. 21st, 2014 06:44 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: another silence of the lambs - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 21st, 2014 06:45 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: another silence of the lambs - maadmike - Nov. 21st, 2014 07:02 pm (UTC) - Expand
creaze
Nov. 21st, 2014 03:33 pm (UTC)
Whatever the conditions their held in, the most crucial right of a prisoner is a hope for salvation, to be released and given the chance for an ordinary life.
peacetraveler22
Nov. 21st, 2014 03:38 pm (UTC)
Even someone like Charles Manson? Yes, rehabilitation should always be the focus, esp. in juvenile situations but some criminals are beyond all hope of rehabilitation. I think it depends on the seriousness of the offence. I would never want him to be back on the streets and I support the death penalty in some cases.
(no subject) - creaze - Nov. 21st, 2014 04:26 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 21st, 2014 06:18 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - creaze - Nov. 21st, 2014 07:18 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - creaze - Nov. 21st, 2014 04:27 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 21st, 2014 06:19 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - creaze - Nov. 21st, 2014 07:27 pm (UTC) - Expand
rider3099
Nov. 21st, 2014 03:36 pm (UTC)
It seems to me that such women are out of their mind
pro100_petrov
Nov. 21st, 2014 03:38 pm (UTC)
But there are a lot of such women (despite of men, by the way).
(no subject) - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 21st, 2014 03:41 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - skvorets1989 - Nov. 23rd, 2014 11:02 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 23rd, 2014 11:04 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - skvorets1989 - Nov. 24th, 2014 06:38 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 24th, 2014 03:25 pm (UTC) - Expand
pro100_petrov
Nov. 21st, 2014 03:37 pm (UTC)
The main right for them is not to be humiliated, killed and wounded,
peacetraveler22
Nov. 21st, 2014 03:44 pm (UTC)
What do you mean not be humiliated? The prison population usually takes care of itself, at least in America. At the bottom of the barrel are rapists and pedophiles. They are commonly killed by other inmates.
(no subject) - pro100_petrov - Nov. 21st, 2014 03:52 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 21st, 2014 03:55 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - pro100_petrov - Nov. 21st, 2014 03:59 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 21st, 2014 04:07 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - pro100_petrov - Nov. 21st, 2014 04:11 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 21st, 2014 04:12 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - pro100_petrov - Nov. 21st, 2014 04:16 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 21st, 2014 04:16 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - pro100_petrov - Nov. 21st, 2014 04:20 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 21st, 2014 04:20 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - pro100_petrov - Nov. 21st, 2014 04:24 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - south_of_broad - Nov. 21st, 2014 05:10 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 21st, 2014 06:19 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - south_of_broad - Nov. 21st, 2014 07:10 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 21st, 2014 07:30 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - south_of_broad - Nov. 21st, 2014 09:52 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 21st, 2014 09:53 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - south_of_broad - Nov. 21st, 2014 10:21 pm (UTC) - Expand
floamaldita
Nov. 21st, 2014 04:23 pm (UTC)
I tried but still don't understand this young girl..
Is this true love? :)
peacetraveler22
Nov. 21st, 2014 04:52 pm (UTC)
It's her version of true love, but definitely not mine. :)
maadmike
Nov. 21st, 2014 05:06 pm (UTC)
It is really an interesting theme. I thought myself about it not once. I think it is the duality of the human's mind produced such strange world as a prison. I think it is not right to hold in one territory the killers and people who did a crime by a coincidence. It is terrible thing to do and I am totally against it. I think, that should be prisons for people who can be given a second chance for returning to a society and the prison for people who will never see a freedom. The people which I doubt, deserve to live at all, and I think you Americans are right that don’t cancel a death penalty like EU and we Russians did.
So, for the prisoners who will return to a normal life, I think, it’s possible and good to have a relationships, when they are in the prison, in my point of view.
We in Russia have the several types of prisons as I know it, the prisons for people from all kind of police forces, for people who did not so much crime and for inveterate criminals.
peacetraveler22
Nov. 21st, 2014 06:26 pm (UTC)
In the U.S., there are different types of prisons. Some are maximum security, which house the most violent offenders and lesser prisons where inmates have much more freedom. There is a new U.S. show focused on the latter called "Orange is the New Black." It's about a cushy prison in a wealthy area of Connecticut. Obama recently passed something called "The Clemency Project." During the 1990's, Federal prison sentencing guidelines for drug offenses where extremely harsh and strict. Judges were bound by the statutory prison terms in the laws that were passed at the height of the crack/cocaine epidemic. As a result, people who were not really involved in large drug traffic schemes, or actually selling drugs, sometimes got very long prison terms merely for being present at the scene of a crime. For instance, your friend had cocaine in the car and you didn't even know about it. But the cops pulled the car over and, as a result, the innocent and unknowing friend was forced to serve a long prison term.

Obama's Clemency Act began this year. It allows current prisoners in jail for minor drug offences to be released if the nature of their crime would be a lesser sentence under current laws/guidelines. So, it's meant to give low level offenders another chance at life. There are some restrictions in place, but I'm going to start working on one of these cases very soon. It should be an interesting experience for me. Maybe all my legal talk is confusing. :) The Clemency Project is explained in detail here, if interested: http://www.nacdl.org/clemencyproject/

Edited at 2014-11-21 06:36 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - maadmike - Nov. 21st, 2014 07:06 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - onkel_hans - Nov. 21st, 2014 06:47 pm (UTC) - Expand
seadevil001
Nov. 21st, 2014 05:07 pm (UTC)
I think if they executed him and his merry band in due time now we would not discuss this issue. Really, what kind of purpose keeping him alive serve?
peacetraveler22
Nov. 21st, 2014 06:28 pm (UTC)
I don't remember why he didn't receive the death penalty? Perhaps he was convicted in a State where the death penalty doesn't exist. I think there are about 20 States that have abolished it all together. But not Virginia. We are second in executions, right behind the leader Texas.
(no subject) - seadevil001 - Nov. 22nd, 2014 03:26 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 22nd, 2014 03:26 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - seadevil001 - Nov. 22nd, 2014 09:09 pm (UTC) - Expand
south_of_broad
Nov. 21st, 2014 05:08 pm (UTC)
Honestly, she doesn't look all that adequate to me. There is something very troubled about her. I cannot say what exactly concerns me in her, but my intuition tells me something is really wrong with this girl. Poor parents.
peacetraveler22
Nov. 21st, 2014 06:29 pm (UTC)
She has what my sister and I call "crazy eyes." :))
pasha1980
Nov. 21st, 2014 05:11 pm (UTC)
You live in a humanistic, homocentric society where the emphasis is on reforming criminals rather then on punishing them, and on giving them the tools they can subsequently use to become integrated into the fabric of society. In Russia, criminals are sent to places that are very much like concentration camps. By international standards, they are subjected to torture and abuse every single day of their sentences.
peacetraveler22
Nov. 21st, 2014 06:30 pm (UTC)
I wonder if a foreigner would ever be allowed to visit or write about a Russian prison? I would love to do it.
(no subject) - pasha1980 - Nov. 21st, 2014 06:45 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 21st, 2014 09:15 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - pro100_petrov - Nov. 21st, 2014 07:37 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 21st, 2014 09:16 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - pro100_petrov - Nov. 22nd, 2014 02:26 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - maadmike - Nov. 21st, 2014 07:47 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 21st, 2014 09:17 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - maadmike - Nov. 21st, 2014 09:45 pm (UTC) - Expand
onkel_hans
Nov. 21st, 2014 06:07 pm (UTC)
Recently I read of a case in Israel.
The assassin of the Israeli Premier got life.
Then a couple of Israeli journalists (she - a Russian) got permit to interview the convict and make a documentary.
In the course of the interview, the woman fell in love with the felon, divorced her husband, married the inmate and got permission to beget a baby.
Now she is fighting to release the mofa for the child care as parent.

And you are saying Manson ... I am really grieving Sharon Tate.
peacetraveler22
Nov. 21st, 2014 06:31 pm (UTC)
Maybe she believed he was innocent? I think that is also the case with Manson's fiance. She has all types of conspiracy theories about the crimes.
(no subject) - onkel_hans - Nov. 21st, 2014 08:23 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 21st, 2014 09:18 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - onkel_hans - Nov. 21st, 2014 10:45 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - onkel_hans - Nov. 21st, 2014 10:49 pm (UTC) - Expand
onkel_hans
Nov. 21st, 2014 06:25 pm (UTC)
For me, the moral paragon is my wife. But women, as you know, are paradoxical.

Occasionally, hearing the news I say that Russia should be dusted with DDT. (I am not that bloodthirsty as to suggest Napalm). My wife protests - the Russians are still humans! And I have to accept this.

On the other hand, once after a heavy rain a cricket got in our living quarters. It was so annoying. Finally I caught the beast. The wife told me to throw him away. This I refused. I relocated the cricket to the basement. In my understanding of the principles of life - a home without a cricket is not home!

So, I released the cricket in the basement. Yet, on the next night, he moved up into the kitchen and started to screech there - not that far from the bedroom! I spent a couple of hours hunting the creature using my head like a 1930s airplane locator. And now finally-finally I got him and this time threw away in the cold backyard.

When I am wrong about women, I usually say Mussolini ha sempre ragione (you know what happened to that predecessor of Putin).
Thus, now I do not think about the DDT and only hope on God's action similar to Sodom and Gomorrah.
andrey_kaminsky
Nov. 21st, 2014 07:19 pm (UTC)
Содом, Гоморра и маленький человек мечтающий о великом
If your wonderful wife will publish a book "My Life With The Fascist", let me know. You did a great advertising for this pamphlet in this blog!)
k_netalie
Nov. 21st, 2014 07:13 pm (UTC)
i believe when you take someone's life, you'll lose some of your rights. there can't be a common answer for all the prisoners. it depends of course on the crime itself. if to talk about such criminals as Charles manson whatever right he was given in the prison, they shouldn't allow him to be dabgerous for other people. he's done enough, i think.
peacetraveler22
Nov. 21st, 2014 09:12 pm (UTC)
Yes, each person is an individual and should be treated as such but this is very hard to do when it comes to mass populations. No government has the resources to dedicate huge numbers of workers, psychiatrists, wardens, etc. to evaluate how prisoners should be separated and even distinguished. Although this definitely happens to some extent - such as determining if someone should be placed in solitary confinement or high vs. low security prison. But I don't think there is much vetting that actually takes place beyond that.
(no subject) - k_netalie - Nov. 21st, 2014 11:43 pm (UTC) - Expand
skvorets1989
Nov. 21st, 2014 08:13 pm (UTC)
I started thinking recently about what rights the most evil and heinous prisoners like Manson should have.

Not being tortured during his death, that's all. I don't understand it and never will why should a murderer live while his victims are dead? What if something happens and he runs away and murders somebody else? In Russia murderers and pedophiles very often get only 5-10 years of imprisonment.

Actually you don't want to know about our system of justice. It is a total mess. Absolute madness.

Edited at 2014-11-21 08:15 pm (UTC)
peacetraveler22
Nov. 21st, 2014 09:10 pm (UTC)
No criminal justice system is perfect. They are all flawed to some extent, and it has happened in America on numerous occasions where child molesters are given light sentences, or released from their prison sentence earlier, and put back out on the streets. I believe pedophiles have one of the highest recidivist rates. They almost always commit the crime again. This is some deeply rooted sickness, and one of the greatest perversions against the most innocent people on the planet - children. But, overall, I believe the American justice system is decent. Though not perfect.
(no subject) - skvorets1989 - Nov. 22nd, 2014 10:59 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 22nd, 2014 11:31 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - skvorets1989 - Nov. 23rd, 2014 12:25 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 23rd, 2014 12:26 am (UTC) - Expand
burfoerste
Nov. 21st, 2014 09:05 pm (UTC)
Judging by the interview that girl don't seems to be smart.
peacetraveler22
Nov. 21st, 2014 09:06 pm (UTC)
After re-watching it, I tend to agree. Perhaps I gave her to much credit in the post. :) Btw, please let me know how you like British Columbia once you arrive!
(no subject) - burfoerste - Nov. 22nd, 2014 07:33 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - burfoerste - Nov. 22nd, 2014 07:48 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - peacetraveler22 - Nov. 22nd, 2014 03:32 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - burfoerste - Nov. 22nd, 2014 04:59 pm (UTC) - Expand
real_marsel
Nov. 21st, 2014 09:35 pm (UTC)
She is crazy.
peacetraveler22
Nov. 21st, 2014 09:36 pm (UTC)
Love sometimes makes people crazy! :))
(no subject) - real_marsel - Nov. 21st, 2014 09:37 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - burfoerste - Nov. 22nd, 2014 07:50 am (UTC) - Expand
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